1 00:00:01,110 --> 00:00:19,720 [Music] 2 00:00:26,030 --> 00:00:22,640 hello and welcome to the antique auction 3 00:00:30,230 --> 00:00:26,040 forum podcast this is Martyn Willis this 4 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:30,240 show started back in 2009 and I love to 5 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:32,970 talk about interesting topics and that 6 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:36,450 will be another one today and this show 7 00:00:41,150 --> 00:00:38,310 just so everyone knows it's not about 8 00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:41,160 slamming an auction house or any 9 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:43,590 particular auction houses or the auction 10 00:00:50,330 --> 00:00:45,810 way of selling but everyone makes 11 00:00:53,030 --> 00:00:50,340 mistakes and I don't care what type of 12 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:53,040 auction house it is there are mistakes I 13 00:00:57,260 --> 00:00:54,810 still believe in the auction business 14 00:01:00,290 --> 00:00:57,270 and the auction method of selling a 15 00:01:03,140 --> 00:01:00,300 hundred percent and for every story we 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:03,150 can tell you about what happens at 17 00:01:08,330 --> 00:01:05,850 auction where someone hits the jackpot 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:08,340 there's probably ten instances where 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:10,770 either a picker or someone at an estate 20 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:13,290 sale got a major find there were a lot 21 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:15,330 of people that are living very happy 22 00:01:21,980 --> 00:01:18,150 right now that had a major find at an 23 00:01:24,919 --> 00:01:21,990 estate sale or at different types of 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:24,929 purchases say if someone calls in a 25 00:01:28,609 --> 00:01:27,329 dealer and sometimes this happened to me 26 00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:28,619 at the age of eighteen I made a mistake 27 00:01:32,749 --> 00:01:31,200 I bought something further for I think 28 00:01:35,510 --> 00:01:32,759 was fifteen dollars at the age of 29 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:35,520 eighteen and I sold it at the time for 30 00:01:42,349 --> 00:01:38,310 four hundred which was really big for me 31 00:01:44,749 --> 00:01:42,359 then but I had no idea what I had I had 32 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:44,759 no idea what I was buying so that as 33 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:49,350 well does happen and so today we're 34 00:01:52,999 --> 00:01:50,420 going to be talking a little bit about 35 00:01:57,469 --> 00:01:53,009 kind of people hitting the jackpot but 36 00:02:00,529 --> 00:01:57,479 also the legalities of it all and I am 37 00:02:04,699 --> 00:02:00,539 very happy to have our guest today and 38 00:02:07,399 --> 00:02:04,709 it's dr. Ann lar Laurie Bandol and she's 39 00:02:10,219 --> 00:02:07,409 an attorney at law at the law firm Borel 40 00:02:12,830 --> 00:02:10,229 and Barbie and Geneva where she advises 41 00:02:16,330 --> 00:02:12,840 clients and matters related to works of 42 00:02:19,670 --> 00:02:16,340 art copyright contracts estate planning 43 00:02:22,660 --> 00:02:19,680 foundations and trusts she again is a 44 00:02:24,890 --> 00:02:22,670 she's a lecturer and copyright and 45 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:24,900 entertainment law that's another 46 00:02:31,789 --> 00:02:28,049 thing in Switzerland she's a guest 47 00:02:33,979 --> 00:02:31,799 lecturer and of cultural heritage and 48 00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:33,989 art law at the London School of 49 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:37,590 Economics and political science and she 50 00:02:43,009 --> 00:02:40,769 is also the director of art law of the 51 00:02:45,140 --> 00:02:43,019 art Law Foundation a foundation that 52 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:45,150 aims to promote and coordinate the work 53 00:02:50,089 --> 00:02:48,209 and research in the field of art law in 54 00:02:53,179 --> 00:02:50,099 particular it supports the research and 55 00:02:55,580 --> 00:02:53,189 teaching activities in art law she holds 56 00:02:57,949 --> 00:02:55,590 a PhD from the University of Geneva and 57 00:02:59,000 --> 00:02:57,959 she's also published a book which were 58 00:03:02,030 --> 00:02:59,010 going to be talking about of 59 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:02,040 misattributed works along with Edie 60 00:03:11,899 --> 00:03:07,650 Edward Elgar and so I want to welcome 61 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:11,909 you welcome you to the show thank you so 62 00:03:15,890 --> 00:03:13,530 much Martine it's a pleasure to be on 63 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:15,900 yes and I think it's gonna be an 64 00:03:19,580 --> 00:03:17,970 interesting topic before we get started 65 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:19,590 and I start asking you questions about 66 00:03:26,030 --> 00:03:21,810 yourself and everything I would like to 67 00:03:29,750 --> 00:03:26,040 tell you about a mistake I made and that 68 00:03:32,839 --> 00:03:29,760 someone profited very well okay great it 69 00:03:34,839 --> 00:03:32,849 has an auction house now I I purchased 70 00:03:40,789 --> 00:03:34,849 the auction house from my father back in 71 00:03:42,379 --> 00:03:40,799 1987 I think was either 85 or 87 and he 72 00:03:44,930 --> 00:03:42,389 was actually with me the day I went into 73 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:44,940 this person's house there's a coastal 74 00:03:50,659 --> 00:03:47,280 town here in Massachusetts apes which 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:50,669 Massachusetts and it was a very nice 76 00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:53,370 house call look I have beautiful period 77 00:03:56,659 --> 00:03:55,470 antiques and paintings and really nice 78 00:03:58,699 --> 00:03:56,669 things but he only wanted to sell a few 79 00:04:04,699 --> 00:03:58,709 things first thing he said when we 80 00:04:06,949 --> 00:04:04,709 walked in the door he said I have a a 81 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:06,959 bunch of stuff in the garage I had a 82 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:09,780 garage sale there's a bunch of junk left 83 00:04:13,490 --> 00:04:11,609 I'm only gonna do business with you if 84 00:04:16,580 --> 00:04:13,500 you take that stuff and sell it - it's 85 00:04:18,710 --> 00:04:16,590 all in boxes so we took a look around 86 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:18,720 and I talked with my father real quickly 87 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:20,130 and he says yeah we should do it so I 88 00:04:25,159 --> 00:04:23,130 said sure we'll do it so in that lot 89 00:04:28,159 --> 00:04:25,169 he had me reached down into a clock and 90 00:04:30,620 --> 00:04:28,169 I found he told me to open a bag and I 91 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:30,630 did there was a spoon a silver spoon 92 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:34,529 made by Paul Revere there was I think we 93 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:36,090 got a really nice clock out of it so was 94 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:38,410 well worth taking all the junk in the 95 00:04:44,220 --> 00:04:42,370 in the garage well in a box in the 96 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:44,230 garage Inglot for those people watching 97 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:46,870 on YouTube I'm going to show you the 98 00:04:55,770 --> 00:04:51,310 image I'm pretty sure this is it and so 99 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:55,780 in the box was a rug fragment and it 100 00:04:59,100 --> 00:04:56,920 looked like it should have been thrown 101 00:05:02,250 --> 00:04:59,110 away in one of the boxes and so 102 00:05:05,010 --> 00:05:02,260 basically we're selling bike box slots 103 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:05,020 at the end of the auction and the box 104 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:07,930 went for $80 with that junky little rug 105 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:09,850 in it which was actually quite a bit of 106 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:13,300 money back in 1987 for a box lot so 107 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:16,450 about a year later somewhere around a 108 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:20,560 year maybe here and a half later I got a 109 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:24,310 phone call and it was from it was from 110 00:05:27,780 --> 00:05:26,050 someone writing it an article a 111 00:05:32,130 --> 00:05:27,790 freelance writer writing an article for 112 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:32,140 Time magazine and she said I would like 113 00:05:36,290 --> 00:05:34,290 to talk to you about a rug fragment that 114 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:36,300 started out at your auction 115 00:05:41,910 --> 00:05:39,700 so I said really I said well tell me the 116 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:41,920 story about it if you would and she said 117 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:43,810 well it went through many hints and she 118 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:47,530 said first you sold it for $80 and I 119 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:48,880 still didn't remember it at the time I 120 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:52,150 had to think about it and then she told 121 00:05:56,730 --> 00:05:54,220 me who bought it who came to the auction 122 00:05:59,190 --> 00:05:56,740 and she said well he sold it for say 123 00:06:01,890 --> 00:05:59,200 $500 and she went down the path of where 124 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:01,900 this went it finally went to an auction 125 00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:03,130 in Brussels 126 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:05,590 in a Seoul for three hundred and fifty 127 00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:09,190 thousand dollars so in 1987 that was a 128 00:06:15,060 --> 00:06:11,950 heck of a lot of money and so I said you 129 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:15,070 know I will talk I'll give you some 130 00:06:21,090 --> 00:06:18,550 information but you can't say my name 131 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:21,100 the auction house or even what state the 132 00:06:28,530 --> 00:06:24,250 auction house was in so I just just too 133 00:06:31,110 --> 00:06:28,540 embarrassed so this this sort of thing 134 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:31,120 happens right I mean that's what she did 135 00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:33,910 your book on exactly what a wonderful 136 00:06:38,780 --> 00:06:36,640 story I'm sorry you were on the the 137 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:38,790 center side another on the buyer side 138 00:06:45,870 --> 00:06:43,630 yeah that does happen a lot and again 139 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:45,880 like I said we're not here to you know 140 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:48,250 squash the auction method because it's a 141 00:06:51,210 --> 00:06:49,930 great method and there's a lot of great 142 00:06:52,530 --> 00:06:51,220 stories I mean I've made 143 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:52,540 a lot of people really happy over the 144 00:06:57,030 --> 00:06:54,340 years of things that went the other way 145 00:06:59,370 --> 00:06:57,040 but uh so a little bit about yourself 146 00:07:03,180 --> 00:06:59,380 can you tell us your background what you 147 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:03,190 get you interested in art sure so so I 148 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:06,130 studied law as as you've understood by 149 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:08,170 now but I have always been passionate 150 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:12,310 about arts I worked as a volunteer for 151 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:15,220 several institutions such as the Oprah 152 00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:18,970 and Geneva or currently the led 153 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:22,180 photography museum in Lausanne to 154 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:24,970 mobilize these young people to get 155 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:27,220 involved with culture and arts so this 156 00:07:32,580 --> 00:07:29,710 is always something that has fascinated 157 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:32,590 me and while studying law I actually 158 00:07:39,990 --> 00:07:35,320 realized that law governs basically 159 00:07:42,150 --> 00:07:40,000 anything including arts so so I was 160 00:07:44,820 --> 00:07:42,160 really thrilled to to know that there 161 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:44,830 was a way to combine both my passion and 162 00:07:53,180 --> 00:07:47,650 my law degree and to actually specialize 163 00:07:56,610 --> 00:07:53,190 in art oh so I did that I started a PhD 164 00:08:00,330 --> 00:07:56,620 in Geneva at the Art Loss Center at the 165 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:00,340 University in Geneva and while doing 166 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:04,210 that I was teaching and researching art 167 00:08:09,710 --> 00:08:06,760 law and it's a very broad field so there 168 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:09,720 is anything from the markets 169 00:08:13,230 --> 00:08:11,830 import/export the protection of cultural 170 00:08:15,210 --> 00:08:13,240 heritage 171 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:15,220 you mentioned entertainment so it's 172 00:08:22,170 --> 00:08:18,550 really really broad which is also why 173 00:08:26,580 --> 00:08:22,180 it's it's very fun oh it is very fun I'm 174 00:08:28,350 --> 00:08:26,590 sure it is and so as far as the topic of 175 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:28,360 the book was there something that 176 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:30,850 personally happened to someone either 177 00:08:39,839 --> 00:08:35,260 you know or yourself for diving into a 178 00:08:41,969 --> 00:08:39,849 project like this so after the end of my 179 00:08:44,219 --> 00:08:41,979 law degree I did an internship at 180 00:08:46,220 --> 00:08:44,229 Christie's legal department in London I 181 00:08:49,590 --> 00:08:46,230 really wanted to know more about this 182 00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:49,600 auction world and how it works 183 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:52,900 and after this traineeship I was so 184 00:08:59,329 --> 00:08:55,690 fascinated by it that I decided to write 185 00:09:03,500 --> 00:08:59,339 my PhD and which is basically the book 186 00:09:06,259 --> 00:09:03,510 about the auction markets 187 00:09:08,629 --> 00:09:06,269 and I had no idea then what direction it 188 00:09:14,319 --> 00:09:08,639 would take but I knew it would be about 189 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:14,329 the auction world okay so what about 190 00:09:19,069 --> 00:09:17,310 some of the stories I think it would be 191 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:19,079 we have a lot of I didn't realize this 192 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:20,310 we have quite a few people in chat 193 00:09:23,150 --> 00:09:22,050 already and there someone's already 194 00:09:25,250 --> 00:09:23,160 talking about 195 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:25,260 Steiff teddy bears that brought 196 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:26,850 thousands at an auction after they 197 00:09:31,069 --> 00:09:29,040 folded so there's a there's some 198 00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:31,079 interest in in chat too so we'll 199 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:32,519 probably have some questions from there 200 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:35,820 but how well I should ask you how you 201 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:40,170 began a project like this so you begin 202 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:43,170 with a theme which was the auction 203 00:09:48,829 --> 00:09:47,250 business and what interested me most at 204 00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:48,839 the beginning was the dispute resolution 205 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:51,630 process as a lawyer would be interested 206 00:09:57,949 --> 00:09:55,010 so because you have this threefold 207 00:09:59,990 --> 00:09:57,959 relationship between the seller the 208 00:10:03,379 --> 00:10:00,000 auction house and the buyer how do 209 00:10:06,590 --> 00:10:03,389 auction houses you know manage once a 210 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:06,600 dispute arises so that was the my first 211 00:10:13,490 --> 00:10:09,810 aim and then I came across an article 212 00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:13,500 about the sale of a sleeper and I was 213 00:10:18,829 --> 00:10:16,560 fascinated by that and I thought this is 214 00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:18,839 a great topic because there is nothing 215 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:22,310 about it no one has written anything 216 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:26,130 extensive about this phenomenon and it 217 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:28,350 combines everything it combines art 218 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:31,529 history it combines the law the markets 219 00:10:39,829 --> 00:10:36,170 so I very quickly knew that this was 220 00:10:41,780 --> 00:10:39,839 what I wanted to write about sleepers at 221 00:10:46,819 --> 00:10:41,790 auction so maybe I should define them 222 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:46,829 because yeah it's quite a word that we 223 00:10:52,189 --> 00:10:49,170 hear now in the in the press so sleepers 224 00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:52,199 are basically works of art or antiques 225 00:11:00,280 --> 00:10:55,760 that are being sold under a wrong 226 00:11:05,150 --> 00:11:00,290 attribution and under obviously a much 227 00:11:07,759 --> 00:11:05,160 under rated value and the example I 228 00:11:09,410 --> 00:11:07,769 often give is well the one you gave is 229 00:11:12,019 --> 00:11:09,420 that you find something in your cellar 230 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:12,029 and you think it's not worth much or 231 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:14,610 anything and it happens to be an old 232 00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:16,889 master painting so 233 00:11:21,499 --> 00:11:18,720 and there are quite a few stories like 234 00:11:25,039 --> 00:11:21,509 this yeah which is obviously the whole 235 00:11:27,379 --> 00:11:25,049 fascination right right I just a quick 236 00:11:30,799 --> 00:11:27,389 example I worked in I worked in 237 00:11:36,379 --> 00:11:30,809 California for six years at an auction 238 00:11:38,569 --> 00:11:36,389 house and at that time there was a there 239 00:11:39,979 --> 00:11:38,579 was a woman in Southern California that 240 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:39,989 our truck went down to and picked up 241 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:41,660 things out of her garage well she had a 242 00:11:46,939 --> 00:11:44,970 painting in her garage that just sat 243 00:11:50,780 --> 00:11:46,949 there that she inherited from Italy an 244 00:11:54,249 --> 00:11:50,790 old master dealer actually came to the 245 00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,259 house in Italy and he discounted it and 246 00:11:57,799 --> 00:11:56,399 later it was attributed now I can't 247 00:12:01,099 --> 00:11:57,809 remember the artists name but it went 248 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:01,109 for $600,000 and I watched it just go up 249 00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,350 so sometimes what I'm getting at here is 250 00:12:08,599 --> 00:12:06,480 sometimes it doesn't matter how it's 251 00:12:10,999 --> 00:12:08,609 attributed if enough people if there's 252 00:12:14,299 --> 00:12:11,009 enough images online and people can see 253 00:12:18,289 --> 00:12:14,309 the details of it now this sold over the 254 00:12:19,849 --> 00:12:18,299 phone to Italy and it actually sold 255 00:12:22,249 --> 00:12:19,859 there was no problem with the sale and 256 00:12:24,139 --> 00:12:22,259 the people it was a hundred percent what 257 00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:24,149 the people were thinking that was so 258 00:12:27,859 --> 00:12:25,860 sometimes it can be a mistake and it has 259 00:12:30,409 --> 00:12:27,869 a really happy ending this woman is 260 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:30,419 thrilled you know of course she was 261 00:12:35,989 --> 00:12:32,220 beside herself paid off her house put 262 00:12:38,929 --> 00:12:35,999 her kid through school all that it does 263 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:38,939 happen but I would say you still take a 264 00:12:44,869 --> 00:12:41,730 risk because the attribution is not 265 00:12:49,429 --> 00:12:44,879 accurate so and you hadn't had the time 266 00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:49,439 to do a full verification on on the work 267 00:12:53,629 --> 00:12:51,720 you you you didn't do any scientific 268 00:12:58,429 --> 00:12:53,639 testing and so on so you still take a 269 00:13:01,579 --> 00:12:58,439 risk and what I found out doing the the 270 00:13:04,850 --> 00:13:01,589 analysis of all these cases was that in 271 00:13:08,779 --> 00:13:04,860 in in any event you will never pay the 272 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:08,789 actual market price for the work with 273 00:13:17,809 --> 00:13:11,850 its accurate attribution you still kind 274 00:13:19,909 --> 00:13:17,819 of put yourself a limit as to what 275 00:13:22,879 --> 00:13:19,919 you're you want to buy for it's 276 00:13:25,999 --> 00:13:22,889 basically it's gambling oh yeah there's 277 00:13:29,359 --> 00:13:26,009 there's a lot of game play there's a lot 278 00:13:30,390 --> 00:13:29,369 of gambling out there and that's that's 279 00:13:32,910 --> 00:13:30,400 kind of an you 280 00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:32,920 an attraction to dealers I really think 281 00:13:36,930 --> 00:13:34,870 that you know I don't have a lot of 282 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:36,940 dealer friends that they go to every 283 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:39,910 single auction and you know in Europe 284 00:13:43,230 --> 00:13:41,530 where you are there's a lot more options 285 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:43,240 than there are here in the United States 286 00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:45,790 especially in England that's you know 287 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:47,950 five auctions every day of the week you 288 00:13:54,390 --> 00:13:52,630 know at least and in London so but there 289 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:54,400 are people that are out there it's kind 290 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:55,810 of like fishing they're trying to catch 291 00:14:00,090 --> 00:13:58,210 the big fish and I know a lot of stories 292 00:14:01,950 --> 00:14:00,100 where I want to tell you an example 293 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:01,960 before we get into some of the examples 294 00:14:07,890 --> 00:14:04,930 you have and this actually happened to a 295 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:07,900 friend of mine he went to an auction 296 00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:10,170 where something was properly attributed 297 00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:15,460 and nobody bid he he bought this 298 00:14:19,650 --> 00:14:18,160 painting for sixty thousand dollars I 299 00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:19,660 think it was with his brother and 300 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:21,910 himself and they turned around and 301 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:25,600 resold it for 800,000 what is the 302 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:28,210 legality is there any legality issue in 303 00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:32,290 a case like that so in this case there 304 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:34,660 was no change as to the attribution it 305 00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:37,090 was basically only a pricing issue yes 306 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:42,990 yeah well if you are the seller and 307 00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:45,850 there is no intermediary there is no 308 00:14:51,390 --> 00:14:48,400 auction house for example well then you 309 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:51,400 set the price you want basically that's 310 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:53,290 that's the rules of the market that 311 00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,410 apply however if you if there is an 312 00:15:02,400 --> 00:14:58,320 auction house that is an intermediary 313 00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:02,410 the auction house has some some duties 314 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:07,120 of care including the duty to you know 315 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:10,900 to assess the item properly so that 316 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:14,830 could be an issue if if you know pricing 317 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:17,200 has not been I mean the estimate price 318 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:18,610 for example has not been established 319 00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:21,730 properly but it's a it's a really tricky 320 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:24,220 undertaking yes 321 00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:26,530 can you let's let's talk about some of 322 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:29,430 the examples that you have in your book 323 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:32,290 and I don't know I do have some images 324 00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:34,210 that I can pull up as we're talking 325 00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:36,070 about it but I don't know exactly what 326 00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:40,540 you're gonna be talking about sure so 327 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,240 well yeah let's start out with though 328 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:44,320 one of the 329 00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:48,850 more exciting or maybe legal issues that 330 00:16:00,770 --> 00:15:53,880 happen during a find a sleeper so 331 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:00,780 basically the sleepers happen if no one 332 00:16:08,220 --> 00:16:03,910 realizes and especially the auction 333 00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,230 house doesn't realize what the actual 334 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:11,440 value and attribution of the object is 335 00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:14,470 so what mostly happens is there is a 336 00:16:19,650 --> 00:16:17,320 very low estimate price for the work and 337 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:19,660 it gets sold at a much higher price 338 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:23,170 hammer price and very quickly afterwards 339 00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:26,410 a few months later there is a second 340 00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:29,200 sale with the accurate attribution and 341 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:31,900 Derrick gets sold from much more so this 342 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:33,850 is a scenario that I have come across in 343 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,610 a few cases I give you an example there 344 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:39,040 was a regional auction house in in 345 00:16:47,130 --> 00:16:42,910 England in Somerset that had offered a 346 00:16:50,370 --> 00:16:47,140 jug and it attributed it as a 19th 347 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:50,380 century French claret jug that was in 348 00:16:55,860 --> 00:16:53,650 early 2008 and the estimate price range 349 00:16:58,380 --> 00:16:55,870 for that item was between hundred and 350 00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:58,390 two hundred pounds now the law was 351 00:17:04,110 --> 00:17:01,360 finally sold to a buyer for two hundred 352 00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:04,120 and twenty thousand pounds so you can 353 00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:06,030 tell there was quite an increase here 354 00:17:11,610 --> 00:17:09,160 and so everyone understood that 355 00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:11,620 something must have gone wrong in this 356 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:16,780 sale and here the auction house managed 357 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:20,770 to agree with the buyer to cancel the 358 00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:26,890 sale and to reoffer the jug at at 359 00:17:33,690 --> 00:17:30,550 Christie's and Christie's then offered 360 00:17:37,710 --> 00:17:33,700 the same item under its actual and 361 00:17:41,070 --> 00:17:37,720 correct attribution which said that it 362 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:41,080 was actually dated 10th or early 11th 363 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:45,310 century and crystal were made for the 364 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:48,250 court of the Fatimid rulers of Cairo so 365 00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:51,250 a very prestigious object not just a jug 366 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:58,060 and the sale estimate price was three 367 00:18:00,480 --> 00:17:58,330 men 368 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:00,490 pounds and actually sold for that amount 369 00:18:10,110 --> 00:18:04,410 so here we really have a very impressive 370 00:18:13,770 --> 00:18:10,120 price increase amazing now what how an 371 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:13,780 earth did the auction house work out a 372 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:18,490 deal with I don't understand with the 373 00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:20,230 the buyer is actually going to give up 374 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:23,740 his jackpot and and actually let go of 375 00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,990 the possibility of that type of money 376 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:27,280 how did that work out 377 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:31,210 no probably what happened here was that 378 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:35,170 all parties agreed to reoffer the sale 379 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:37,030 at auction and they would all get a 380 00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:39,970 percentage of the sale price but all of 381 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:42,430 this is obviously confidential so we 382 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:45,930 only get to know about it if the media 383 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:50,730 tells it or if there is a court case and 384 00:18:57,780 --> 00:18:55,450 here there was no courts there was no 385 00:19:00,360 --> 00:18:57,790 case law that we could rely upon so all 386 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:00,370 we know is what the press has told us so 387 00:19:06,570 --> 00:19:03,310 I assume that there must have been some 388 00:19:09,330 --> 00:19:06,580 financial arrangement yeah I would only 389 00:19:11,610 --> 00:19:09,340 think that would I mean that is very 390 00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:11,620 rare I mean I had a situation once where 391 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:15,340 I had a reserve on an item and you know 392 00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:19,570 a minimum bid and it was the the man 393 00:19:24,030 --> 00:19:21,430 said he wanted six four and I thought he 394 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:24,040 meant 600 but he wanted six thousand and 395 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:27,070 the and it sold for less than that and 396 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:30,040 the buyer was grateful enough to have me 397 00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:32,170 cancel the sale on that but usually when 398 00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:33,760 a buyer gets a score they're not gonna 399 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:35,830 let go and they don't have to let go 400 00:19:44,970 --> 00:19:40,570 really right in at auction no I mean 401 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:44,980 they in DD buy they buy the item as it 402 00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:49,570 is attributed however the sale 403 00:19:53,910 --> 00:19:51,280 conditions of auction houses are 404 00:19:56,910 --> 00:19:53,920 generally quite broadly formulated in 405 00:20:00,200 --> 00:19:56,920 the sense that auction houses have room 406 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:00,210 to cancel auction sales under certain 407 00:20:08,730 --> 00:20:03,730 conditions so they have some sort of 408 00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:08,740 flexibility I see okay so we you 409 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:11,200 actually looked at my website and saw 410 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:11,920 the show that I 411 00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:15,850 did with Martin Kemp about the 412 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:18,160 Salvadoran Monday that was the last show 413 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:21,610 that I did did you look into the legal 414 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:24,550 aspects of of that what that whole 415 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:27,010 situation and because I don't really 416 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:28,690 have the background details of how that 417 00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:33,370 all came about in the beginning it came 418 00:20:39,330 --> 00:20:35,830 out I wasn't made aware of it before the 419 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:39,340 the book was published so it wasn't part 420 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:41,170 of my analysis but I'm actually quite 421 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:43,900 flattered that the most expensive work 422 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:47,710 ever sold at auction is a sleeper that's 423 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:51,820 right so so that originated as far as I 424 00:20:57,810 --> 00:20:53,410 know the image is up there now that 425 00:21:02,280 --> 00:20:57,820 originated in a New Orleans auction 426 00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:02,290 house and sold for this is for the 427 00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:03,550 person that didn't listen to my last 428 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:06,940 show I think it's sold for something 429 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:09,540 like 18,000 dollars something like that 430 00:21:17,660 --> 00:21:15,730 and what was the final bid let's say it 431 00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:17,670 was went through several hands and 432 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:22,270 actually a Russian oligarch owned it at 433 00:21:27,150 --> 00:21:24,490 the last part of it almost sounded like 434 00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:27,160 he was money laundering because I had it 435 00:21:32,910 --> 00:21:29,740 had a low low estimate on it lower 436 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:32,920 estimate than what he paid for it so 437 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:34,900 that's why I say the money laundering I 438 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:37,690 hope I don't get found out for something 439 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:40,630 but anyway it backfired if that's what 440 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:42,910 he was doing and went for 400 425 441 00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:45,010 million something like that without the 442 00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:47,320 Hemmer price yeah yeah without the 443 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:49,980 buyers Commission sorry yeah so that's 444 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:53,490 that's that tops them all that I know of 445 00:22:03,570 --> 00:21:58,290 as far as as far as a prices at auction 446 00:22:07,950 --> 00:22:03,580 so what would be the legal aspect of 447 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:07,960 that as far as when it comes to the the 448 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:09,490 auction house that originally sold that 449 00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:15,010 I mean what would happen well what you 450 00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:18,040 want to probably find out now is what 451 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:22,960 the remedies are to the consignor what 452 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:25,090 can the consignor do is obviously very 453 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:25,810 first 454 00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:29,980 that he has sold a work that has now 455 00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:33,540 been sold further for much higher amount 456 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:39,790 so generally what the the the legal 457 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:41,770 standard is here is to establish that 458 00:22:49,410 --> 00:22:44,730 the auction house had been negligent in 459 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:49,420 in the attribution process because 460 00:22:56,820 --> 00:22:52,990 basically the auction house owes the 461 00:22:59,490 --> 00:22:56,830 consignor a duty of diligence and a duty 462 00:23:03,350 --> 00:22:59,500 of care and that encompasses not only 463 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:03,360 the attribution that each auction houses 464 00:23:08,850 --> 00:23:06,370 compiles in the in the catalogue but 465 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:08,860 also the estimate price which obviously 466 00:23:15,230 --> 00:23:10,990 were both wrong in the event of a 467 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:15,240 sleeper and it's really a difficult 468 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:19,630 proof because the consignor has to look 469 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:22,090 at the circumstances surrounding the the 470 00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:27,210 given sale and and establish that the 471 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:31,180 auction house had been negligent not to 472 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:35,290 consult certain sources you know certain 473 00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:39,990 catalogues certain experts or conducting 474 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:43,710 scientific testing for example so it's 475 00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:46,720 it requires understanding the 476 00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:50,590 attribution process at auction and it 477 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:53,220 requires also to understand the legal 478 00:23:58,830 --> 00:23:56,530 the reasoning sorry that should have 479 00:24:02,310 --> 00:23:58,840 brought the auction house to the rights 480 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:02,320 attribution and it's it's a fascinating 481 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:05,740 process so I was actually once at the 482 00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:07,840 court hearing of a sleeper case at the 483 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:11,260 London Court of Justice and they had to 484 00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:16,570 buy extra screens so as to show the 485 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:19,870 extent of documentation that was an 486 00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:22,450 evidence that was made available by 487 00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:27,070 experts and scientific analysis and it 488 00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:31,360 was a very very large enterprise four 489 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:34,120 days basically to explain to the courts 490 00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:36,550 you know the process of attribution and 491 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:37,360 and 492 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:50,850 given artist or not so it's it's really 493 00:24:58,370 --> 00:24:53,710 impressive do you remember in particular 494 00:25:02,660 --> 00:24:58,380 what that piece was yes that was the the 495 00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:02,670 lost load White's versus Sotheby's case 496 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:06,640 regarding an alleged Caravaggio painting 497 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:09,730 which has never been attributed to 498 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:12,490 Caravaggio since I should say I think I 499 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:16,750 have I thought I had the image of that I 500 00:25:25,950 --> 00:25:22,480 don't think so so that how did that ever 501 00:25:29,310 --> 00:25:25,960 what was the final outcome of that well 502 00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,320 the consignor lost basically the the 503 00:25:34,289 --> 00:25:30,880 court judge ruled in favor of the 504 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:34,299 auction house concluding that it had not 505 00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:36,850 been negligent in coming to the 506 00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:38,980 conclusion that the work was not by 507 00:25:46,820 --> 00:25:41,440 Caravaggio but by a follower of 508 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:46,830 Caravaggio and therefore did not owe any 509 00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:52,690 damages to the consignor oh I see and so 510 00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:56,350 what about in a case like that I'm just 511 00:26:03,600 --> 00:25:58,690 pulling up the image now in a case like 512 00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,610 that what happens to all the expenses 513 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:05,679 that the auction house concurs in a 514 00:26:14,159 --> 00:26:09,090 situation like that well that was 515 00:26:17,789 --> 00:26:14,169 actually quite sad in this case as it 516 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:17,799 was the consignor who had to pay for the 517 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:21,850 huge amount of litigation costs and fees 518 00:26:30,060 --> 00:26:26,530 that had occurred which I think I don't 519 00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:30,070 remember exactly but they were about two 520 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:33,429 million pounds so these are huge amounts 521 00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:38,650 and that have to be borne by the party 522 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:42,190 who basically loses the case Wow that is 523 00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:44,230 that's really something to think of when 524 00:26:48,299 --> 00:26:45,820 someone is going to try to move forward 525 00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:48,309 in a situation like that now I'm going 526 00:26:57,419 --> 00:26:51,760 to ask a question as a previous auction 527 00:27:01,379 --> 00:26:57,429 owner myself when a work comes in where 528 00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:01,389 does the line approximately cross worse 529 00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:05,559 there's due diligence on a piece and 530 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:08,230 when I say due diligence I mean to the 531 00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:08,980 part where you're talking about 532 00:27:13,529 --> 00:27:11,169 scientific study where you get into real 533 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:13,539 deep study and you can hire an expert if 534 00:27:17,399 --> 00:27:16,000 something you know something is in my 535 00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:17,409 opinion if something's worth you know 536 00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:20,590 ten thousand or less you kind of just 537 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:22,960 let it fly you say it's signed this it's 538 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:26,289 that it's you know by the artist but 539 00:27:32,159 --> 00:27:29,500 there's a line where if it gets crossed 540 00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:32,169 then that's when you should be bringing 541 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:34,630 in like the expert do you have do you 542 00:27:41,370 --> 00:27:35,980 kind of understand where I'm going with 543 00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:41,380 this yes which is also why the legal 544 00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:44,220 standard is so difficult to apprehend 545 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:48,340 because it basically does not look at 546 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:52,690 the results so is there a mr. Buell yes 547 00:27:58,529 --> 00:27:55,330 then the auction houses faulty no it 548 00:28:01,409 --> 00:27:58,539 looks at the process so courts have 549 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:01,419 actually held that that a client's 550 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:03,850 consigners and buyers cannot expect that 551 00:28:10,049 --> 00:28:06,850 an auctioneer has closely examined all 552 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:10,059 property and guarantees the accuracy of 553 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:13,330 the catalog descriptions so it doesn't 554 00:28:20,850 --> 00:28:15,600 infer any liability based on the wrong 555 00:28:24,029 --> 00:28:20,860 attribution but one has to look at the 556 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:24,039 process and here is this line that is 557 00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:28,000 really difficult to draw whereas the 558 00:28:36,299 --> 00:28:31,720 auction house must consult with you know 559 00:28:39,180 --> 00:28:36,309 the closest available information but of 560 00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,190 course no one can expect an auction 561 00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:41,679 house to be an art historian and to 562 00:28:48,299 --> 00:28:44,460 conduct provenance research for months 563 00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,309 that would be really contrary to the 564 00:28:55,379 --> 00:28:51,120 auction business so it's a very 565 00:28:59,850 --> 00:28:55,389 hypothetical and fluid threshold that is 566 00:29:02,369 --> 00:28:59,860 being applied and which is difficult to 567 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:02,379 to understand how its implemented in 568 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:03,510 practice 569 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:05,530 have you seen cases that 570 00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:09,490 it was these actually like jury trials 571 00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:11,350 where there's a jury involved or is it 572 00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:15,400 just a judge a judge prison it's just a 573 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:18,160 judge and have you ever seen a case 574 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:21,730 where it just dragged on and they just 575 00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:25,150 couldn't understand how to how to judge 576 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:28,960 in this certain circumstance or are they 577 00:29:32,370 --> 00:29:30,190 always looking for some type of 578 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:32,380 precedence and do they create a 579 00:29:39,810 --> 00:29:37,720 precedence with with a judgement yes so 580 00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:39,820 there there are cases that have been 581 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:44,500 judged in the 90s and the case law has 582 00:29:52,170 --> 00:29:49,810 set a precedent as to some of them you 583 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:52,180 know the the requirements and standards 584 00:30:00,480 --> 00:29:57,610 of negligence but there are not many 585 00:30:05,550 --> 00:30:00,490 court cases actually on sleepers so 586 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:05,560 there is still room for for judges to to 587 00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,750 set to set their own standards but most 588 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:12,880 I would say most of the cases are really 589 00:30:18,810 --> 00:30:14,950 difficult to understand and involve 590 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:18,820 expert testimony so you would have 591 00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:21,210 expert that would just be called 592 00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:26,830 understand and explain their view of the 593 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:29,950 markets of the attribution and of the 594 00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:32,890 painting yeah I've done some of that 595 00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:35,350 expert testimony and it is grueling I 596 00:30:41,610 --> 00:30:37,960 never look forward to it it's not fun at 597 00:30:44,460 --> 00:30:41,620 all can you also tell let's hear another 598 00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:44,470 one of the stories that you have in your 599 00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:49,360 book if you would sure so there was a 600 00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:52,720 case that I looked into because it was 601 00:30:59,550 --> 00:30:55,180 also quite impressive in terms of 602 00:31:01,950 --> 00:30:59,560 figures which concerns a carpet that was 603 00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:01,960 sold at a local auction house in Germany 604 00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,110 and it was considerably under sold 605 00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:07,360 because the local auction house failed 606 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:10,000 to identify that it was originating from 607 00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:12,970 the mid 17th century and Kerman in 608 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:16,600 southeast Persia so it was offered at 609 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:19,090 auction for 900 euros 610 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:21,630 and subsequently sold at Christie's 611 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:26,890 under its enhanced provenance which was 612 00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:29,530 that the carpet had once been owned by 613 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:34,600 the Countess of be AG who had amassed an 614 00:31:39,390 --> 00:31:36,490 impressive collection of Iranian arts 615 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:39,400 and the change in attribution actually 616 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:42,370 dramatically impacted the estimate price 617 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:46,530 which Christie's sets at 200,000 to 618 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:50,170 300,000 pounds and at the auction two 619 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:53,050 interested buyers were bidding against 620 00:31:59,130 --> 00:31:56,530 each other until the lot reached a final 621 00:32:01,710 --> 00:31:59,140 hammer price of six point two million 622 00:32:03,510 --> 00:32:01,720 pounds including Commission's goodness I 623 00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:03,520 have the image of that up now it is a 624 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:06,310 beautiful beautiful piece and the thing 625 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:09,130 that people never realize about rugs or 626 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:11,530 anything that is made out of fabric is 627 00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:14,050 it's biodegradable for something to be 628 00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:17,500 around and and look in that condition 629 00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:19,180 this probably repairs in it but for 630 00:32:27,050 --> 00:32:20,590 something to be around that long is 631 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:27,060 quite amazing actually in the case of 632 00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:30,610 that you've looked into this were there 633 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:32,740 ever any instances where there was greed 634 00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:36,730 involved and you know mishandled you 635 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:39,280 know pieces just out of greed someone 636 00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:41,860 trying to make the big score anything 637 00:32:49,650 --> 00:32:45,430 like that come to mind mm I would say 638 00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:49,660 it's in sleeper cases I wouldn't see any 639 00:32:53,970 --> 00:32:52,000 I mean greed but the only thing that 640 00:32:57,210 --> 00:32:53,980 comes to mind is that obviously because 641 00:33:01,710 --> 00:32:57,220 of time you know and and catalog 642 00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:01,720 deadlines auction houses don't only have 643 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:04,780 that amount of time to to establish 644 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:08,050 correct attribution so we speak of greed 645 00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:10,030 that's the only thing that comes to mind 646 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:13,180 and obviously conducting scientific 647 00:33:18,180 --> 00:33:16,450 testing on each lot would mean that you 648 00:33:21,450 --> 00:33:18,190 know that the consignment would be very 649 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:21,460 expensive so well in that regard 650 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:24,610 obviously one can always do more and and 651 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:29,200 spend more money on on establishing the 652 00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:32,650 authenticity of a work of art 653 00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:36,900 another thing who who bears the cost of 654 00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:40,240 say their potentially a really nice 655 00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:42,640 piece comes into an auction house now 656 00:33:46,110 --> 00:33:44,289 they have to get it 657 00:33:48,810 --> 00:33:46,120 you know authenticated by the expert 658 00:33:52,019 --> 00:33:48,820 it's not free a lot of times they're 659 00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:52,029 shipping involved and who bears the cost 660 00:34:00,600 --> 00:33:55,390 of that generally is it a auction house 661 00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:00,610 or or the consignor my depends on the 662 00:34:09,629 --> 00:34:05,830 case well the general conditions of sale 663 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:09,639 would say that any expert advice is on 664 00:34:18,419 --> 00:34:15,010 the client to be paid but you know there 665 00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,429 is always room for a negotiation and and 666 00:34:23,220 --> 00:34:20,560 the auction house can find a different 667 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:23,230 deal but that it that it was you what is 668 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:25,210 usual and that's also what auction 669 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:27,609 houses recommend to their clients is 670 00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:29,770 that they come in with their experts and 671 00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:33,609 consult with their experts beforehand if 672 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:36,159 they want to make sure that the 673 00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:39,970 attribution is correct now do you have 674 00:34:44,970 --> 00:34:42,310 any cases that you can think of when the 675 00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:44,980 actual expert was wrong they made a 676 00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:51,990 well the famous forgery cases that we 677 00:35:01,050 --> 00:34:56,740 all know have involved experts who were 678 00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:01,060 wrong you know there is the wolfgang 679 00:35:08,190 --> 00:35:04,060 belt hockey forgery case that was 680 00:35:12,930 --> 00:35:08,200 extensively written about and and told 681 00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:12,940 about which involved experts who who 682 00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:15,430 authenticated his works and that's 683 00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:18,400 what's also reassured and the auction 684 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:22,240 houses to to sell them on so what what 685 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:23,770 was the final outcome of that in 686 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:28,330 particular in a case like that well I 687 00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:31,450 know of one court case that was that 688 00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:33,520 involved a painting by that was 689 00:35:40,109 --> 00:35:36,040 attributed to campin donk but was 690 00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:40,119 originally by the forger and here the 691 00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:43,150 the buyers actually sued the auction 692 00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:45,940 house in Germany and 693 00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:48,680 they won the case or the auction house 694 00:35:55,479 --> 00:35:51,200 had to pay them the damages that they 695 00:35:59,049 --> 00:35:55,489 incurred from purchasing the forgery now 696 00:36:00,759 --> 00:35:59,059 the forgery cases are much easier from a 697 00:36:04,569 --> 00:36:00,769 legal perspective because the law 698 00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:04,579 protects the buyer of a forgery and you 699 00:36:09,759 --> 00:36:07,190 have a certain amount of years where 700 00:36:12,309 --> 00:36:09,769 during which you can go back to the 701 00:36:15,549 --> 00:36:12,319 auction house and reclaim the money 702 00:36:19,839 --> 00:36:15,559 you've paid if you actually purchased 703 00:36:22,059 --> 00:36:19,849 something that is not authentic yeah 704 00:36:24,999 --> 00:36:22,069 there seems to be like there can be a 705 00:36:26,829 --> 00:36:25,009 lot of gray areas in this which i think 706 00:36:29,710 --> 00:36:26,839 is kind of interesting now what about 707 00:36:31,420 --> 00:36:29,720 the Bella principessa now that's 708 00:36:33,210 --> 00:36:31,430 something I did a show on awhile back 709 00:36:37,539 --> 00:36:33,220 did you have that in your book by chance 710 00:36:41,859 --> 00:36:37,549 of course that was actually a case from 711 00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:41,869 the United States that also led to a 712 00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:46,880 trial and the Bella principessa is 713 00:36:53,470 --> 00:36:49,670 basically a work that scholars 714 00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:53,480 attributed to Leonardo da Vinci after it 715 00:37:01,329 --> 00:36:59,119 was sold at auction for $21,000 so we 716 00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:01,339 now know what a da Vinci painting is 717 00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:04,700 worth under its correct attribution so 718 00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:07,220 there was obviously quite a gap and in 719 00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:08,960 that case what was interesting was that 720 00:37:14,229 --> 00:37:11,119 the consignor had actually informed the 721 00:37:18,370 --> 00:37:14,239 auction house that he believed the 722 00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:18,380 painting was by an early Italian 723 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:23,569 Renaissance painter who had apprenticed 724 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:28,910 at the time as at the same time as 725 00:37:34,839 --> 00:37:32,210 Leonardo da Vinci so you know the whole 726 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:34,849 case was also bad you know what of what 727 00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:38,210 use was that information for the auction 728 00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:42,079 house to find maybe a link to da Vinci 729 00:37:47,470 --> 00:37:45,230 no pardon me I'm sorry didn't they have 730 00:37:51,299 --> 00:37:47,480 that cataloged as a German painting 731 00:37:55,390 --> 00:37:51,309 originally I'm just trying to recall yes 732 00:37:58,900 --> 00:37:55,400 exactly it was actually cataloged as an 733 00:37:59,950 --> 00:37:58,910 the the according to the the complaint 734 00:38:02,200 --> 00:37:59,960 it 735 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:02,210 conclude the the auction house concluded 736 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:04,010 that it was an amateur object of the 737 00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:09,410 19th century and and the complaint also 738 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:11,900 said that the auction house had spent 15 739 00:38:19,180 --> 00:38:15,530 minutes examining the painting but 740 00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:19,190 finally we we will never know what the 741 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:21,800 court would have ruled on the merits of 742 00:38:26,170 --> 00:38:23,930 this case because the claim was 743 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:26,180 basically time barred so it was filed 744 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:30,890 too late oh so you mean it just couldn't 745 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:34,910 go anywhere because of exactly you have 746 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:38,810 to act within a certain time period all 747 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:41,330 right so where do you know I know 748 00:38:46,060 --> 00:38:43,970 I heard when I spoke with Martin Kemp 749 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:46,070 laughs that that was just sitting in a 750 00:38:53,590 --> 00:38:50,020 vault somewhere yeah and and for sale 751 00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:53,600 but have you heard about anything about 752 00:38:58,270 --> 00:38:55,220 that lately anything that's going on 753 00:39:00,850 --> 00:38:58,280 with it not lately but you know I am not 754 00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:00,860 surprised about the outcome and this is 755 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:04,240 something that I have seen before 756 00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:09,650 regarding works that have come to to the 757 00:39:16,090 --> 00:39:13,880 courts and and the for which the 758 00:39:20,050 --> 00:39:16,100 attribution or the authenticity was at 759 00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:20,060 disputes because very often you know I 760 00:39:25,630 --> 00:39:22,880 mean all court cases are public so 761 00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:25,640 everyone will know about it and the 762 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:27,440 public will also know that the 763 00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:32,210 authenticity is questioned and if there 764 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:37,120 is no anonymous opinion of all scholars 765 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:41,570 that are regarded as the authority for 766 00:39:46,210 --> 00:39:44,330 that artists on you know whether or not 767 00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,220 the painting is authentic well then it 768 00:39:52,510 --> 00:39:48,320 remains in certain and so sort of a 769 00:39:55,470 --> 00:39:52,520 limbo status and and can't be sold 770 00:39:58,300 --> 00:39:55,480 because people will always have doubts 771 00:40:02,200 --> 00:39:58,310 so yes this is something that has 772 00:40:05,290 --> 00:40:02,210 happened before right right so the 773 00:40:08,380 --> 00:40:05,300 internet comes along and the late 90s or 774 00:40:12,370 --> 00:40:08,390 I should say the early 90s and changes 775 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:12,380 everything and you probably weren't you 776 00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:13,510 probably weren't practicing 777 00:40:22,109 --> 00:40:18,430 back then but but in your opinion are 778 00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:22,119 there old cases or do you think it 779 00:40:26,579 --> 00:40:24,070 happens more now that the Internet the 780 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:26,589 auction houses have you know an internet 781 00:40:30,569 --> 00:40:28,450 platform or or what difference do you 782 00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:30,579 think that that could make over just 783 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:36,790 plain catalogs well I know from dealers 784 00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:40,170 who have specialized in finding sleepers 785 00:40:46,579 --> 00:40:43,510 they have now shifted their business 786 00:40:50,010 --> 00:40:46,589 from looking at printed catalogs to 787 00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,020 looking at online catalogs so they they 788 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:53,200 have told me that basically they trained 789 00:40:58,530 --> 00:40:56,770 their eye to become a digital eye and it 790 00:41:00,480 --> 00:40:58,540 makes their work much easier because 791 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:00,490 they have access to much more 792 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:06,160 information and and much more sales than 793 00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:09,970 before so that has certainly changed the 794 00:41:19,290 --> 00:41:16,960 way the market is now happening I'm not 795 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:19,300 sure in the amount of sleepers I mean 796 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:21,490 there's certainly also an increase in 797 00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:26,170 sales so the proportionally there might 798 00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:29,520 be also more sleepers but interestingly 799 00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:33,790 sleepers generally happen when a big 800 00:41:38,579 --> 00:41:36,190 estate gets sold or you know when you do 801 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:38,589 an entire house sale including all 802 00:41:43,410 --> 00:41:40,930 furniture and its entire our collection 803 00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:43,420 so when you have big amounts of works 804 00:41:48,809 --> 00:41:46,510 that needs to be authenticated for a 805 00:41:53,609 --> 00:41:48,819 specific sale that's usually when a 806 00:41:57,329 --> 00:41:53,619 sleeper slips through right right we 807 00:41:59,400 --> 00:41:57,339 have up on the chat room saying there's 808 00:42:02,130 --> 00:41:59,410 so many forgeries out there and coins 809 00:42:04,050 --> 00:42:02,140 and paintings and stamps and I I've said 810 00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:04,060 this many times a painting is guilty 811 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:06,250 till it's proven innocent and it's just 812 00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:08,380 you know authenticating there's there 813 00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:11,020 are so many forgeries out there and you 814 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:12,400 know I would suggest to the person 815 00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:14,290 listening if they're gonna buy a 816 00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:15,790 painting to make sure they know what 817 00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:18,910 they're buying because any signature can 818 00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:22,780 be on a painting first of all and my 819 00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:24,720 father told me when I was really young 820 00:42:28,890 --> 00:42:27,190 and because I 821 00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:28,900 picked up a painting that was a forgery 822 00:42:33,809 --> 00:42:31,119 and I thought it was real and he came 823 00:42:36,210 --> 00:42:33,819 out and he said it's a piece of junk he 824 00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:36,220 looked at it I was in my garage it's a 825 00:42:41,250 --> 00:42:37,990 piece of junk and I said yeah but it's 826 00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:41,260 signed Abbot fuller graves and he said 827 00:42:46,980 --> 00:42:45,190 always looked at the painting first he 828 00:42:50,309 --> 00:42:46,990 said pretend a painting doesn't have a 829 00:42:53,460 --> 00:42:50,319 signature look at the painting then look 830 00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:53,470 at the signature and I think that 831 00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:54,520 there's a lot of truth in that I mean 832 00:43:01,050 --> 00:42:58,210 I've been doing that ever since I second 833 00:43:04,730 --> 00:43:01,060 that it's good to get advice before and 834 00:43:07,410 --> 00:43:04,740 do your research and don't act under 835 00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:07,420 under stress when you purchase the work 836 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:13,990 of art so I know a number of people that 837 00:43:17,609 --> 00:43:15,880 in the old days this is what they used 838 00:43:18,329 --> 00:43:17,619 to do we were talking about internet 839 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:18,339 just a minute ago 840 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:21,130 I know this guy that survived and did 841 00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:22,450 very very well 842 00:43:27,150 --> 00:43:25,180 beautiful house nice cars everything on 843 00:43:31,650 --> 00:43:27,160 sleepers that's all he ever did he was 844 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:31,660 an art dealer he would get a weekly 845 00:43:37,020 --> 00:43:34,210 periodical that showed auctions coming 846 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:37,030 up he looked for auctions with paintings 847 00:43:40,589 --> 00:43:38,410 it didn't matter where in the country 848 00:43:42,359 --> 00:43:40,599 they were and I watched him because he 849 00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:42,369 shared an office with him for a while 850 00:43:48,180 --> 00:43:45,940 and so he would circle all these auction 851 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:48,190 houses and then call every single one of 852 00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:50,890 them he'd spend an entire day and he 853 00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:53,740 said hi my name is such-and-such hey by 854 00:43:56,339 --> 00:43:55,119 the way I see you have some paintings do 855 00:43:58,319 --> 00:43:56,349 you happen to have any paintings that 856 00:44:00,660 --> 00:43:58,329 you don't have pictured or listed he 857 00:44:02,339 --> 00:44:00,670 used to say that every time and a lot of 858 00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:02,349 our good part of the time they'd say yes 859 00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:03,880 and he says so can you send me pictures 860 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:06,550 please and if they're signed send me 861 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:08,770 pictures of the signature and he made 862 00:44:14,910 --> 00:44:11,650 his living off of that alone just by 863 00:44:16,829 --> 00:44:14,920 calling these auction houses so what is 864 00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:16,839 your advice for someone that actually is 865 00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:21,670 looking for sleepers well the advice I 866 00:44:27,150 --> 00:44:25,150 got from sleeper sleuth was to train 867 00:44:31,470 --> 00:44:27,160 your eye because that's the first thing 868 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:31,480 that will help you to identify as your 869 00:44:39,089 --> 00:44:35,530 colleague did and and then to have a 870 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:39,099 real proper look at it so to go actually 871 00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:40,490 to the auction room if used 872 00:44:44,050 --> 00:44:42,590 half time and look at it and turn the 873 00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:44,060 painting around that was also something 874 00:44:50,380 --> 00:44:47,920 that he advised me but that's obviously 875 00:44:52,359 --> 00:44:50,390 completely out of out of the legal 876 00:44:58,090 --> 00:44:52,369 sphere so I leave that to the arts 877 00:45:01,000 --> 00:44:58,100 historians and experts I know of a 878 00:45:03,580 --> 00:45:01,010 number of cases that have happened over 879 00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:03,590 the years and one of them I want to just 880 00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:04,910 tell a real quick story because you've 881 00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:06,710 probably heard of this this particular 882 00:45:11,980 --> 00:45:09,200 case has nothing to do with auctions but 883 00:45:14,859 --> 00:45:11,990 it's still a fascinating story in the 884 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:14,869 Midwest and in the United States and the 885 00:45:18,990 --> 00:45:15,410 Midwest 886 00:45:21,130 --> 00:45:19,000 there was a scrap silver gold dealer and 887 00:45:23,410 --> 00:45:21,140 you probably already know the story 888 00:45:26,170 --> 00:45:23,420 before I even get going too far in it so 889 00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,180 he gets this egg this person brings him 890 00:45:31,330 --> 00:45:28,400 this egg and they had it in their family 891 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:31,340 he had no idea what it was and he 892 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:32,810 thought it was absolutely beautiful and 893 00:45:38,020 --> 00:45:36,530 had a watch mounted inside he had no 894 00:45:40,359 --> 00:45:38,030 idea what it was but he knew the watch 895 00:45:44,010 --> 00:45:40,369 was good so he paid them basically 896 00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:44,020 fourteen thousand dollars for this egg 897 00:45:48,820 --> 00:45:46,670 so he starts to look at it and he starts 898 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:48,830 to you know check things and he weighs 899 00:45:53,260 --> 00:45:51,530 the gold and he realizes he's gonna lose 900 00:45:56,370 --> 00:45:53,270 money on his fourteen thousand dollars 901 00:45:59,859 --> 00:45:56,380 he gets really frustrated he goes online 902 00:46:06,220 --> 00:45:59,869 eventually it turns into a 33 million 903 00:46:09,730 --> 00:46:06,230 dollar Faberge lost egg I mean this is a 904 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:09,740 this is a really good example when 905 00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:11,690 someone needs to hire professional I 906 00:46:17,950 --> 00:46:14,900 think yes it's a great catch definitely 907 00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:17,960 but you know it's what I loved when 908 00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:20,630 talking about Sleeper is also to 909 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:23,540 students or when I discussed it within 910 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:26,810 the university it it gets you the 911 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:28,970 feeling that basically anyone could just 912 00:46:35,890 --> 00:46:32,210 find something in his own cellar that is 913 00:46:38,109 --> 00:46:35,900 actually much more valuable than what he 914 00:46:41,650 --> 00:46:38,119 thought it would be so it's it's like 915 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:41,660 winning at the lottery basically that's 916 00:46:46,570 --> 00:46:44,930 right that's right and I I do have a lot 917 00:46:48,609 --> 00:46:46,580 of stories of things that have happened 918 00:46:50,050 --> 00:46:48,619 and I don't know if you want me to I 919 00:46:51,370 --> 00:46:50,060 mean we still have time here if you want 920 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:51,380 me to share a couple of them that are 921 00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:53,330 these interesting I want to hear some of 922 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:54,020 you you know if 923 00:47:02,410 --> 00:46:56,450 you have some more stories as well I 924 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:02,420 have a friend and he actually went into 925 00:47:07,870 --> 00:47:05,410 an antique shop now there was an auction 926 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:07,880 back it up there was an auction there 927 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:11,090 was a library and in the library there 928 00:47:14,020 --> 00:47:12,290 was a bunch of leather-bound books 929 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:14,030 nothing really fancy 930 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:17,330 I think the antique dealer paid say four 931 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:19,010 hundred dollars for the entire library 932 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:23,690 he put him in boxes and he basically and 933 00:47:29,260 --> 00:47:27,410 it was a really extensive library so 934 00:47:31,870 --> 00:47:29,270 there was a lot of boxes so he put him 935 00:47:35,970 --> 00:47:31,880 in his shop for like fifteen dollars a 936 00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:35,980 box and so of this guy know a friend 937 00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:40,220 actually went into the shop and he 938 00:47:42,850 --> 00:47:41,660 reached down he's looking at all the 939 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:42,860 different books and then he sees 940 00:47:47,890 --> 00:47:45,410 something interesting picks it up and I 941 00:47:51,660 --> 00:47:47,900 believe it was a handwritten transcript 942 00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:51,670 from Edgar Allan Poe an entire book 943 00:47:57,490 --> 00:47:55,520 transcript bottom line is he got the I 944 00:47:59,320 --> 00:47:57,500 pretty sure it was just about two 945 00:48:02,050 --> 00:47:59,330 million dollars for that single book 946 00:48:04,180 --> 00:48:02,060 that he paid $15 worth so I said what 947 00:48:05,860 --> 00:48:04,190 was it like what did you think when you 948 00:48:07,450 --> 00:48:05,870 saw that and he said he was trying to 949 00:48:10,540 --> 00:48:07,460 stop his hands from shaking because he 950 00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:10,550 knew what he had when he paid the $15 so 951 00:48:18,550 --> 00:48:14,900 I also talked to the owner the guy that 952 00:48:21,310 --> 00:48:18,560 sold it for for $15 and he just he just 953 00:48:23,530 --> 00:48:21,320 laughed he said knowledge is power yeah 954 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:23,540 that's kind of what this is all about 955 00:48:28,990 --> 00:48:26,090 knowledge is power it isn't it isn't it 956 00:48:31,630 --> 00:48:29,000 crazy that the the object hasn't changed 957 00:48:33,340 --> 00:48:31,640 you know you say his hands was shaking 958 00:48:36,070 --> 00:48:33,350 his hands were shaking but it's still 959 00:48:40,090 --> 00:48:36,080 the same object basically but it's crazy 960 00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:40,100 how our appreciation of an item changes 961 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:42,110 as soon as you know the label is 962 00:48:48,670 --> 00:48:45,530 different that's right and it's all it's 963 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:48,680 all about provenance and story you know 964 00:48:55,060 --> 00:48:52,370 you mentioned earlier this carpet 965 00:49:01,000 --> 00:48:55,070 because it belonged to what was it a 966 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:01,010 princess or this account back yeah so in 967 00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:02,930 your opinion let's talk about provenance 968 00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:05,960 how much of a difference does that make 969 00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:07,640 has any attribution 970 00:49:12,310 --> 00:49:09,920 ever happened and they found out later 971 00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:12,320 besides this that the provenance made 972 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:16,580 the difference well I would say that 973 00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:20,210 provenance is often one of the factors 974 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:22,220 that makes a difference because 975 00:49:29,770 --> 00:49:24,770 obviously it will be linked to dating 976 00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:29,780 the item and you know figuring out its 977 00:49:35,620 --> 00:49:33,440 location of origin if it's an antique so 978 00:49:40,140 --> 00:49:35,630 it's often very much linked to all the 979 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:40,150 other elements of an items attribution 980 00:49:46,690 --> 00:49:44,210 but certainly if you know if you would 981 00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:46,700 have twice the same painting and one has 982 00:49:51,730 --> 00:49:49,310 been part of the Royal collections that 983 00:49:54,220 --> 00:49:51,740 one will be more valuable than the other 984 00:49:58,780 --> 00:49:54,230 one so provenance has that additional 985 00:50:01,840 --> 00:49:58,790 factor also in terms of value right I 986 00:50:03,550 --> 00:50:01,850 have a friend who basically says if it 987 00:50:05,770 --> 00:50:03,560 loses its story it loses its value 988 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:05,780 there's something to that 989 00:50:11,980 --> 00:50:08,090 not not totally because a lot of things 990 00:50:15,490 --> 00:50:11,990 are just a lot of things you know just 991 00:50:19,090 --> 00:50:15,500 stand on their own and you see this 992 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:19,100 happen sometimes when you know pieces 993 00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:20,690 are unsigned they're not particularly 994 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:26,000 old but in a case like that say a 995 00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:29,690 contemporary artwork unsigned it comes 996 00:50:33,310 --> 00:50:31,160 in now there was another case I heard 997 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:33,320 about also in California where there was 998 00:50:38,740 --> 00:50:35,930 a whole bunch of artwork sold by one 999 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:38,750 artist and it ends up the person made 1000 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:41,330 millions and millions of dollars and 1001 00:50:47,620 --> 00:50:42,890 they were all unsigned 1002 00:50:50,590 --> 00:50:47,630 I mean consignor consigning something 1003 00:50:52,450 --> 00:50:50,600 that's unsigned what type of what type 1004 00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:52,460 of responsibility first of all would an 1005 00:50:59,260 --> 00:50:54,830 auction house have in an unsigned piece 1006 00:51:01,660 --> 00:50:59,270 as far as liability well you would 1007 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:01,670 generally first of all look at civil 1008 00:51:08,590 --> 00:51:05,210 liability and this would be again a 1009 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:08,600 forgery case so these are much more 1010 00:51:14,110 --> 00:51:11,570 straightforward since the law here would 1011 00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:14,120 protect the buyer obviously but again 1012 00:51:18,070 --> 00:51:16,190 you have to act within a certain time 1013 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:18,080 period which sometimes can be really 1014 00:51:24,550 --> 00:51:20,570 tricky and I know that in Switzer 1015 00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:24,560 for example the law has changed for art 1016 00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:27,920 and cultural property specifically and 1017 00:51:32,620 --> 00:51:30,140 we have extended that time limit to 30 1018 00:51:34,450 --> 00:51:32,630 years because we've realized that it 1019 00:51:37,150 --> 00:51:34,460 might be actually really difficult to 1020 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:37,160 find out whether something is a fake or 1021 00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:43,250 not so the the buyer in that case could 1022 00:51:49,090 --> 00:51:45,920 just simply turn to the auction house 1023 00:51:52,510 --> 00:51:49,100 and ask to cancel the sale and be 1024 00:51:56,380 --> 00:51:52,520 refunded on the consignor well if he has 1025 00:51:59,680 --> 00:51:56,390 if he knew that that he was basically 1026 00:52:02,800 --> 00:51:59,690 offering forgeries for sale then he 1027 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:02,810 might be liable for fraud so that's 1028 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:07,810 another it's another level of action 1029 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:10,970 right right just uh just one more quick 1030 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:12,410 story I'll tell and then I'm gonna ask 1031 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:15,110 you to tell stories and this has to do 1032 00:52:21,730 --> 00:52:19,370 with something that I have to say that I 1033 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:21,740 got involved in back in the early days 1034 00:52:29,650 --> 00:52:25,370 of eBay they didn't use to have spell 1035 00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:29,660 checks so I was going through one day I 1036 00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:31,700 mean you they had searches and I was on 1037 00:52:36,340 --> 00:52:33,680 a search list of all different types of 1038 00:52:38,980 --> 00:52:36,350 artists and I had an art gallery at the 1039 00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:38,990 time so and I was selling like I'm not 1040 00:52:44,830 --> 00:52:42,110 basically 19th and 20th century art so I 1041 00:52:48,310 --> 00:52:44,840 did this search I would search purposely 1042 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:48,320 and misspell an artist name and one day 1043 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:50,510 I had a bingo and it was a really really 1044 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:54,050 good artist the artwork itself now I 1045 00:52:59,530 --> 00:52:56,450 can't recall the artist right now but it 1046 00:53:02,080 --> 00:52:59,540 was worth about twenty to twenty-five 1047 00:53:05,380 --> 00:53:02,090 thousand something like that and I 1048 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:05,390 bought it for under $1,000 I was so 1049 00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:09,050 excited and all of a sudden the person 1050 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:11,270 selling it said nope it's not for sale 1051 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:13,610 all of a sudden just stopped so someone 1052 00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:15,770 either alerted them I think that's what 1053 00:53:22,780 --> 00:53:19,250 happened and I couldn't get anywhere so 1054 00:53:25,540 --> 00:53:22,790 do people as far as you know do people 1055 00:53:31,930 --> 00:53:25,550 actually troll around the internet and 1056 00:53:38,170 --> 00:53:34,420 I haven't come across 1057 00:53:40,510 --> 00:53:38,180 misspelling in the very high range art 1058 00:53:43,510 --> 00:53:40,520 sector I would say and the people I 1059 00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:43,520 spoke with were mostly you know looking 1060 00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:46,609 at local auction houses but but more art 1061 00:53:51,220 --> 00:53:48,200 specific and I think that the 1062 00:53:54,220 --> 00:53:51,230 misspellings they occur mostly when no 1063 00:53:56,290 --> 00:53:54,230 art professional is involved so you know 1064 00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:56,300 typically eBay as you mentioned because 1065 00:54:03,160 --> 00:53:58,960 it's directly between two individuals 1066 00:54:05,530 --> 00:54:03,170 and and huge quantities also of art 1067 00:54:09,309 --> 00:54:05,540 being offered you know at the very fast 1068 00:54:11,980 --> 00:54:09,319 pace so right it's that the the origins 1069 00:54:14,799 --> 00:54:11,990 of the mistake are could be quite 1070 00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:14,809 similar right right do you have another 1071 00:54:20,940 --> 00:54:16,160 story you can share with us 1072 00:54:23,710 --> 00:54:20,950 sure so I've mentioned the the fact that 1073 00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:23,720 sleeper's happened often when you know 1074 00:54:29,589 --> 00:54:27,109 you have big estates that are being sold 1075 00:54:33,549 --> 00:54:29,599 and that was one case that was shared 1076 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:33,559 with me by an auction house that I 1077 00:54:41,740 --> 00:54:38,690 consulted whilst writing the book and it 1078 00:54:45,490 --> 00:54:41,750 concerned an a British businessman an 1079 00:54:48,210 --> 00:54:45,500 art collector who died in 1995 and his 1080 00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:48,220 heirs decided to sell his collection and 1081 00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:52,760 consigned a painting for sale at 1082 00:55:04,660 --> 00:55:00,160 Sotheby's and basically the painting was 1083 00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:04,670 bought by the art collector at a country 1084 00:55:11,319 --> 00:55:07,730 house auction in the 40s and he stored 1085 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:11,329 it in a chicken shed ever since he 1086 00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:13,130 believed the painting to be by an 1087 00:55:20,829 --> 00:55:16,280 Italian artists called Pietro testa but 1088 00:55:23,319 --> 00:55:20,839 he had never it during his lifetime so 1089 00:55:25,299 --> 00:55:23,329 when it was presented to Sotheby's the 1090 00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:25,309 painting was actually covered by a thick 1091 00:55:31,390 --> 00:55:28,400 layer of dust and dirt but otherwise was 1092 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:31,400 in good condition and the auction house 1093 00:55:38,079 --> 00:55:34,490 offered the painting for sale under the 1094 00:55:41,770 --> 00:55:38,089 Pietro taste attribution and put an 1095 00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:41,780 estimate price range of 10,000 to 15,000 1096 00:55:46,030 --> 00:55:44,510 pounds and two galleries were actually 1097 00:55:47,500 --> 00:55:46,040 bidding against each other for the 1098 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:47,510 painting 1099 00:55:55,050 --> 00:55:52,010 and it finally went for 155 thousand 1100 00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:55,060 pounds so ten times the actual estimate 1101 00:56:00,849 --> 00:55:57,200 and after the sale 1102 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:00,859 the painting was clean and restored and 1103 00:56:11,290 --> 00:56:06,290 it was actually it was authenticated by 1104 00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:11,300 the then leading experts for Pusa which 1105 00:56:18,370 --> 00:56:14,000 were Pierrot sandbag and Dennis Mao and 1106 00:56:22,930 --> 00:56:18,380 they both authenticated it as an 1107 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:22,940 original Nicola Pusa painting which was 1108 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:26,570 finally sold under its accurate 1109 00:56:37,210 --> 00:56:30,530 attribution and title for 4.5 million 1110 00:56:41,859 --> 00:56:37,220 pounds so again a very impressive value 1111 00:56:47,410 --> 00:56:41,869 increase here amazing amazing someone 1112 00:56:49,330 --> 00:56:47,420 just asked is ignorance a crime and in a 1113 00:56:51,730 --> 00:56:49,340 way and I just wrote them back I guess 1114 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:51,740 it's supposed to be when you're when 1115 00:56:57,220 --> 00:56:54,290 you're supposed to be a professional yes 1116 00:56:58,630 --> 00:56:57,230 and in a way it could become one right I 1117 00:57:02,770 --> 00:56:58,640 mean that's the easiest way to answer 1118 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:02,780 that well it's ignorance is that there 1119 00:57:06,670 --> 00:57:04,490 are different layers of ignorance I 1120 00:57:11,980 --> 00:57:06,680 would say there is the ignorance that 1121 00:57:14,980 --> 00:57:11,990 you shouldn't be if if something is 1122 00:57:18,070 --> 00:57:14,990 really obvious and then there is 1123 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:18,080 negligence that you know that that you 1124 00:57:23,770 --> 00:57:21,650 can't be liable for 1125 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:23,780 so then this is what makes it so 1126 00:57:28,750 --> 00:57:26,330 difficult because we all look at the 1127 00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:28,760 result we all look at you know what is 1128 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:30,470 the actual artist of the painting we 1129 00:57:37,180 --> 00:57:33,170 don't really want to know whether one 1130 00:57:39,660 --> 00:57:37,190 should have been careful enough in and 1131 00:57:42,340 --> 00:57:39,670 and and be able to establish that new 1132 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:42,350 attribution this is what makes it so 1133 00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:47,450 tricky to to fight these cases I bet I 1134 00:57:53,859 --> 00:57:50,480 bet so we only have a couple minutes 1135 00:57:56,109 --> 00:57:53,869 left here you have another story you can 1136 00:57:59,109 --> 00:57:56,119 pop in there I mean if you don't I have 1137 00:58:02,480 --> 00:57:59,119 one I could tell to 1138 00:58:06,590 --> 00:58:02,490 great go along please are you sure okay 1139 00:58:08,210 --> 00:58:06,600 now this well first of all I wanted to 1140 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:08,220 ask you this question and it's okay if 1141 00:58:14,090 --> 00:58:11,450 we go a little bit over and that is 1142 00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:14,100 don't you agree that it it doesn't 1143 00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:17,760 matter what oxygen house it is doesn't 1144 00:58:23,150 --> 00:58:20,310 matter who the experts are I mean I've 1145 00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:23,160 heard one of the big New York auction 1146 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:26,160 houses Mayday I think it was a several 1147 00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:28,890 million dollar mistake on a agen art 1148 00:58:34,070 --> 00:58:32,160 piece this was about five or six years 1149 00:58:36,109 --> 00:58:34,080 ago it doesn't matter what auction house 1150 00:58:39,830 --> 00:58:36,119 it is right I mean do you agree with 1151 00:58:42,740 --> 00:58:39,840 that I agree I mean sleeper cases have 1152 00:58:45,050 --> 00:58:42,750 arisen at any kind of auction house 1153 00:58:47,180 --> 00:58:45,060 whether it's a very local small auction 1154 00:58:50,590 --> 00:58:47,190 house or one of the big international 1155 00:58:52,580 --> 00:58:50,600 auction houses from a legal perspective 1156 00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:52,590 there is a difference 1157 00:58:58,640 --> 00:58:55,440 so both kinds of auction houses will not 1158 00:59:00,859 --> 00:58:58,650 be held to the same standards so judges 1159 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:00,869 are actually sensitive as to you know 1160 00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:03,810 what means does an auction house have in 1161 00:59:12,290 --> 00:59:08,310 order to assess an attribution right 1162 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:12,300 right okay so I'm gonna tell I really 1163 00:59:16,340 --> 00:59:14,730 don't want to end these the show on the 1164 00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:16,350 negative note like this this is kind of 1165 00:59:20,780 --> 00:59:18,240 a it's kind of a sad story because it 1166 00:59:22,970 --> 00:59:20,790 happened to a friend of mine he he grew 1167 00:59:26,180 --> 00:59:22,980 up in a wealthy family and he had an 1168 00:59:28,849 --> 00:59:26,190 artwork oh I have another story I can 1169 00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:28,859 tell you about after thatl real quickly 1170 00:59:35,770 --> 00:59:31,200 that Elaine owned a good note so my 1171 00:59:38,210 --> 00:59:35,780 friend he has a an artist I think it was 1172 00:59:41,150 --> 00:59:38,220 someone like Georges Braque or someone 1173 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:41,160 like that it was a major artwork but 1174 00:59:46,460 --> 00:59:44,250 this artist was known for having two 1175 00:59:49,370 --> 00:59:46,470 different errors of work two different 1176 00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:49,380 values of work through one of his eras 1177 00:59:54,020 --> 00:59:52,050 and one of his times in life his 1178 00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:54,030 paintings didn't sell so well now this 1179 00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:56,010 goes back before the internet this was 1180 01:00:01,340 --> 00:59:58,640 several years ago so he brings us the 1181 01:00:03,260 --> 01:00:01,350 painting down to one of the two big 1182 01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:03,270 auction house well those three big 1183 01:00:09,770 --> 01:00:07,380 auction houses in New York City and he 1184 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:09,780 brings it in and they consult and they 1185 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:12,250 said you know basically this is 1186 01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:14,650 the low estimate you know the lower like 1187 01:00:19,260 --> 01:00:17,470 the $30,000 range your paintings in like 1188 01:00:21,839 --> 01:00:19,270 the 30 to 40 that's what we had 1189 01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:21,849 estimated at and so my friend says okay 1190 01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:25,270 go ahead you know sell it and so almost 1191 01:00:28,589 --> 01:00:27,280 a year goes by they still don't sell the 1192 01:00:29,010 --> 01:00:28,599 painting and he's wondering what's going 1193 01:00:32,940 --> 01:00:29,020 on 1194 01:00:35,010 --> 01:00:32,950 so he's in New York and he says and he's 1195 01:00:37,890 --> 01:00:35,020 aware of their two different types of 1196 01:00:40,050 --> 01:00:37,900 prices these pieces brink so he says to 1197 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:40,060 them basically what's going on with the 1198 01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:41,650 painting you know no one's answering a 1199 01:00:46,109 --> 01:00:43,690 call and they said well we actually have 1200 01:00:48,990 --> 01:00:46,119 someone that is offering to purchase 1201 01:00:53,370 --> 01:00:49,000 this painting at the low estimate so he 1202 01:00:56,220 --> 01:00:53,380 says really the $30,000 and he just got 1203 01:00:59,310 --> 01:00:56,230 this feeling and it didn't feel right 1204 01:01:00,839 --> 01:00:59,320 and he says bring me my painting now so 1205 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:00,849 he had to wait for two or three hours 1206 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:02,290 before they got it out of storage and 1207 01:01:07,620 --> 01:01:04,210 actually brought it to him 1208 01:01:10,380 --> 01:01:07,630 and he was furious and he he basically 1209 01:01:12,780 --> 01:01:10,390 went to the other big auction house in 1210 01:01:15,450 --> 01:01:12,790 New York City and it sold for three 1211 01:01:17,310 --> 01:01:15,460 hundred and fifty thousand dollars now 1212 01:01:18,359 --> 01:01:17,320 that is a case of greed right there I 1213 01:01:20,730 --> 01:01:18,369 mean that there was something 1214 01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:20,740 underhanded going on and that's one of 1215 01:01:24,990 --> 01:01:23,410 the major auction houses so I don't want 1216 01:01:27,570 --> 01:01:25,000 anyone to think that this happens a lot 1217 01:01:31,050 --> 01:01:27,580 but occasionally something like this has 1218 01:01:34,349 --> 01:01:31,060 happened you know it does happen I mean 1219 01:01:38,370 --> 01:01:34,359 at the end the good news about all these 1220 01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:38,380 cases is that we discover a masterpiece 1221 01:01:44,790 --> 01:01:41,440 that we've thought to be lost forever 1222 01:01:47,550 --> 01:01:44,800 so that's the the bright side through 1223 01:01:50,010 --> 01:01:47,560 any case yes and we're going to talk 1224 01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:50,020 about your book as we close so people 1225 01:01:56,010 --> 01:01:53,770 know where to find that but I would like 1226 01:01:59,810 --> 01:01:56,020 to unless you want to end with the story 1227 01:02:04,079 --> 01:01:59,820 I'll end with some one more story okay I 1228 01:02:09,540 --> 01:02:04,089 mean we've all remember that the yard 1229 01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:09,550 sale of the ding Bowl so you know we've 1230 01:02:14,490 --> 01:02:11,680 we've mentioned that it's always when 1231 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:14,500 big collections are getting sold that 1232 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:16,570 mistakes happen you've mentioned also 1233 01:02:24,859 --> 01:02:20,770 online auction platforms and another 1234 01:02:28,279 --> 01:02:24,869 source for sleepers is your 1235 01:02:31,339 --> 01:02:28,289 Ceballos so there was this case of of a 1236 01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:31,349 family in New York who purchased a 1237 01:02:38,299 --> 01:02:34,410 finely potted Bowl at a yard sale for 1238 01:02:39,999 --> 01:02:38,309 three dollars and they brought the ball 1239 01:02:42,799 --> 01:02:40,009 to Sotheby's for an appraisal and 1240 01:02:47,029 --> 01:02:42,809 Sotheby's actually found out that it was 1241 01:02:51,339 --> 01:02:47,039 a bowl from the DHing northern Song 1242 01:02:56,450 --> 01:02:51,349 Dynasty with an estimate of 200,000 to 1243 01:02:59,569 --> 01:02:56,460 300,000 dollars and it was it was 1244 01:03:04,160 --> 01:02:59,579 cataloged as being the one of the two 1245 01:03:06,019 --> 01:03:04,170 last well-known pieces that the other 1246 01:03:08,809 --> 01:03:06,029 one being held by the British Museum in 1247 01:03:12,589 --> 01:03:08,819 London and it was finally sold to a 1248 01:03:18,890 --> 01:03:12,599 London art dealer for hold yourself to 1249 01:03:20,779 --> 01:03:18,900 point 225,000 sorry two million as they 1250 01:03:23,539 --> 01:03:20,789 have way above two million dollars 1251 01:03:25,730 --> 01:03:23,549 goodness including BIOS premium so I 1252 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:25,740 mean the the family must have been 1253 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:29,130 really thrilled Wow so three dollars 1254 01:03:34,549 --> 01:03:31,410 turned into two million that's 2 million 1255 01:03:36,589 --> 01:03:34,559 exactly winning the lottery and also 1256 01:03:40,089 --> 01:03:36,599 just so someone knows I've been at this 1257 01:03:44,359 --> 01:03:40,099 for 45 years plus I hate to say it but 1258 01:03:47,509 --> 01:03:44,369 around that and it it doesn't happen 1259 01:03:49,940 --> 01:03:47,519 that much but it does happen it doesn't 1260 01:03:53,089 --> 01:03:49,950 happen I mean because that I go and I go 1261 01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:53,099 to a lot of estate sales and all right 1262 01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:54,559 so I'll just tell this quick story 1263 01:04:00,970 --> 01:03:58,079 because it also happened to a friend of 1264 01:04:04,819 --> 01:04:00,980 mine when I was living out in California 1265 01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:04,829 he would get Craigslist's you know look 1266 01:04:11,180 --> 01:04:08,480 through Craigslist and online and this 1267 01:04:15,130 --> 01:04:11,190 person in the actual town where he was 1268 01:04:18,349 --> 01:04:15,140 from said they had a table for sale and 1269 01:04:19,549 --> 01:04:18,359 so they had a picture of it and he 1270 01:04:21,799 --> 01:04:19,559 thought it looked pretty nice kind of 1271 01:04:24,019 --> 01:04:21,809 the type of thing he sells he sold a lot 1272 01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:24,029 of French furniture and decorative arts 1273 01:04:30,170 --> 01:04:27,089 so he drives to their house and takes a 1274 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:30,180 look at it and he looks at the it had a 1275 01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:34,130 it was mounted with a sev porcelain 1276 01:04:38,670 --> 01:04:37,170 cameo plate in the center of this table 1277 01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:38,680 takes a look at it 1278 01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:40,210 in the plates cracked right in the 1279 01:04:46,380 --> 01:04:43,570 middle so he says uh well what are you 1280 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:46,390 looking for it and they said they wanted 1281 01:04:49,980 --> 01:04:48,490 a thousand dollars and he said well it's 1282 01:04:53,220 --> 01:04:49,990 cracked he says I do like it I'll give 1283 01:04:55,230 --> 01:04:53,230 you 800 so he did a show and he had it 1284 01:04:58,080 --> 01:04:55,240 in his show for a few thousand dollars 1285 01:04:59,880 --> 01:04:58,090 an antique show and the whole day went 1286 01:05:02,580 --> 01:04:59,890 by and finally someone came by and they 1287 01:05:05,220 --> 01:05:02,590 said you know I think I'll take that and 1288 01:05:08,250 --> 01:05:05,230 he says you know I he goes it's sold it 1289 01:05:09,660 --> 01:05:08,260 sold he change his mind and because he 1290 01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:09,670 just started getting this feeling about 1291 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:12,610 it so he brought it into Bonhams out in 1292 01:05:18,570 --> 01:05:15,730 Cali in San Francisco Butterfield's at 1293 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:18,580 the time they took a look at it and the 1294 01:05:24,780 --> 01:05:20,890 guy get like so excited about he said 1295 01:05:27,540 --> 01:05:24,790 this is really really good he said we 1296 01:05:29,100 --> 01:05:27,550 would like to take it he talked to his 1297 01:05:33,450 --> 01:05:29,110 colleagues he said we'd like to put a 1298 01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:33,460 $300,000 estimate on it so now this is 1299 01:05:35,820 --> 01:05:35,020 something psychologically I've seen 1300 01:05:37,830 --> 01:05:35,830 happen a lot 1301 01:05:40,650 --> 01:05:37,840 all of a sudden that number gets thrown 1302 01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:40,660 at you you get scared and nervous this 1303 01:05:45,060 --> 01:05:42,910 is what happened to him so he said I 1304 01:05:48,420 --> 01:05:45,070 don't want to commit to that so we sent 1305 01:05:53,130 --> 01:05:48,430 a picture - pretty sure with Sotheby's 1306 01:05:55,110 --> 01:05:53,140 in New York City they flew someone out 1307 01:05:59,240 --> 01:05:55,120 to look at the table in the next couple 1308 01:06:02,730 --> 01:05:59,250 of days and so it ended up being the 1309 01:06:04,770 --> 01:06:02,740 cover lot of the catalogue ended up 1310 01:06:07,290 --> 01:06:04,780 being one of two tables known by the 1311 01:06:09,570 --> 01:06:07,300 certain French maker they repaired the 1312 01:06:11,610 --> 01:06:09,580 they repaired the ceramic piece that was 1313 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:11,620 broken and he said that it was on the 1314 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:14,530 phone when it brought 2.5 million 1315 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:18,850 dollars so yeah it's about the same all 1316 01:06:23,970 --> 01:06:21,130 right not the same as a three dollar pot 1317 01:06:27,510 --> 01:06:23,980 you know which isn't it is a fun it's a 1318 01:06:29,550 --> 01:06:27,520 fun a really fun business and there are 1319 01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:29,560 treasures and there's a lot of times 1320 01:06:32,730 --> 01:06:31,090 where someone will take a chance on 1321 01:06:37,770 --> 01:06:32,740 something and they'll lose their shirt 1322 01:06:40,740 --> 01:06:37,780 so there are two sides to it can you 1323 01:06:42,870 --> 01:06:40,750 give the listening audience your 1324 01:06:45,330 --> 01:06:42,880 information how they could contact you 1325 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:45,340 if you'd like to hear from them or where 1326 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:47,530 where to find your book and the name the 1327 01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:49,210 name and the title of your book if you 1328 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:51,510 would sure I 1329 01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:55,050 I'm more than happy to so my book is 1330 01:07:00,740 --> 01:06:57,570 called the sale of miss attributed 1331 01:07:04,130 --> 01:07:00,750 artworks and antiques at auction it's 1332 01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:04,140 published by Edward Elgar publishing you 1333 01:07:12,350 --> 01:07:08,160 can find it on Edward Elgar's web page 1334 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:12,360 and it's also on my web page and if you 1335 01:07:23,860 --> 01:07:14,490 would like to contact me I have my my 1336 01:07:46,730 --> 01:07:44,870 www.arts.ms.gov a sudden here's about a 1337 01:07:49,970 --> 01:07:46,740 whole bunch of new things coming down 1338 01:07:52,850 --> 01:07:49,980 the line have you had any plans I'm 1339 01:07:57,560 --> 01:07:52,860 writing again sure of course 1340 01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:57,570 I'm I'm writing about artists and their 1341 01:08:03,470 --> 01:08:01,200 rights to authenticate works of Arts so 1342 01:08:07,780 --> 01:08:03,480 I look at copyright now 1343 01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:07,790 and and whether artists are entitled to 1344 01:08:13,670 --> 01:08:11,640 to determine whether works of Arts that 1345 01:08:16,570 --> 01:08:13,680 that they have actually created or 1346 01:08:19,940 --> 01:08:16,580 forgeries so that they have not created 1347 01:08:23,150 --> 01:08:19,950 that whether they have a right to say 1348 01:08:27,410 --> 01:08:23,160 that it has you know their paternity or 1349 01:08:30,769 --> 01:08:27,420 not so I look at artists rights the 1350 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:30,779 power of artists basically and and 1351 01:08:36,380 --> 01:08:33,810 unfinished works of art and disavowed 1352 01:08:38,780 --> 01:08:36,390 works of Arts so all about all about 1353 01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:38,790 that yeah excellent all right well 1354 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:40,410 thanks so much again it's been a real 1355 01:08:47,030 --> 01:08:43,130 pleasure Thank You Martin okay bye now 1356 01:08:51,019 --> 01:08:47,040 bye alright everyone so thanks so much 1357 01:08:52,670 --> 01:08:51,029 for checking us out today and we'll be 1358 01:08:56,780 --> 01:08:52,680 back at another time with another show